Re: Very bad news...
dubien, Fri May 13 2011, 12:52AM

If he is just fixing the glitch with the two minecarts touching, I don't think it will cause much trouble with the rail systems. But if he fixes the launcher, then we have a HUGE problem...

Re: Very bad news...
, Fri May 13 2011, 02:57AM

He fucking better not! I just learn how to make cboosters

Re: Very bad news...
altgamer, Fri May 13 2011, 03:59AM

I'm not sure what to make out of it... he posts this:

"From my changelist: "* Fixed minecarts next to each other causing extreme velocities (sorry!)""

.. which obviously sounds like cboosters and every other type of 'glitch' boosters, but then he also tweets this..

"Also, removing creepers, making all blocks spherical, and limiting the map height to 7."

Sooo.. I don't know, at this point I think notch is trolling everyone, or at least I hope he is... I mean really, he can't be serious..

Re: Very bad news...
, Fri May 13 2011, 09:59AM

7? Lol.

Re: Very bad news...
, Fri May 13 2011, 05:48PM

Alt, first post was real, fixing the cart glitch.... second post was a joke after the uproar when people figured out all their previous track systems using the old style cart boosters would be broken.

So, if he does take out the cart booster, will that affect c-boosters as well? I have a gut feeling it will. My reasoning; you can have a c-booster with just 4 carts on 4 track sections, so the boost and glitching must come from them touching each other, giving each other infinite momentum.

I can't be sure though till 1.6 is released. I think a few other things we currently take for granted will be broken as well. But, usually fixing one thing leads to other things breaking, so maybe direct cart glitching will be gone, but something new will pop up to take its place. Like the 'buffed up' powered carts + power rails spinning quickly will shoot out a cart at nearly infinite momentum.

Someone somewhere will stumble across a replacement. If not, power rails are /kit-able, so its not a complete loss. A ridden cart just needs a power rail every 25 normal rails on flat ground. You can cover 1,000 blocks with just 40 power rails, which is less than you get in one /kit, I think.

Re: Very bad news...
, Fri May 13 2011, 06:01PM

We get 16 power rails per kit, but that's not the important bit here.

Man, we've built entire cart networks based on the cbooster - and I love it to bits! I don't even know what I love the most, the booster or the idea of it (carts crashing together creating a magnetic field!). But in any case, it's going to be a lot of work to redesign the entire rail networks until we can someone create infinite momentum with powered rails somehow.

Yes, we'll see how it turns out when they are given more of a boost when 1.6 comes out. Until then; let's enjoy what we have!

Re: Very bad news...
dubien, Fri May 13 2011, 09:10PM

Maybe in the future after notch hears complaints and whatever, he will release an actual item or system (non glitch) that will give infinite momentum?

Re: Very bad news...
, Fri May 13 2011, 09:13PM

he also said that powered tracks will give more speed so finally the cart will go more than 25 blocks. so more to think that it's real what he said.

Re: Very bad news...
, Sat May 14 2011, 11:39AM

Maybe in the future after notch hears complaints and whatever, he will release an actual item or system (non glitch) that will give infinite momentum?

dubien

I doubt it. It's more likely that someone either finds a new glitch, or someone finds a way to harness the power of something else. We'll just have to wait and see exactly how much damage Notch is going to do with the release of 1.6 - after that we have to do damage control (i.e. rebuild a lot and possibly find new ways).

Re: Very bad news...
Deleted-User-1415, Sat May 14 2011, 02:17PM

How is this a problem, guys? You knew what you were getting into with a Beta, he just cleans up a messy glitch. Single booster tracks are much better to the eye and to design in than glitch-powered boosters and what not!

I like the change. We will need to do a little repair but hey-ho! Something more to do in Minecraft

Re: Very bad news...
, Sat May 14 2011, 03:20PM

How is this a problem, guys? You knew what you were getting into with a Beta, he just cleans up a messy glitch. Single booster tracks are much better to the eye and to design in than glitch-powered boosters and what not!

I like the change. We will need to do a little repair but hey-ho! Something more to do in Minecraft

DavH27

Cboosters are normally hidden but, mine is under the floor where it's out of sight so it's not really an eyesore

Re: Very bad news...
, Sat May 14 2011, 03:42PM

How is this a problem, guys? You knew what you were getting into with a Beta, he just cleans up a messy glitch. Single booster tracks are much better to the eye and to design in than glitch-powered boosters and what not!

DavH27

You're talking about conventional boosters - yes, those aren't "pretty". But our cboosters (the magnetic field boosters) are hidden, and don't make a "mess" at all. You basically cannot see them, and wouldn't know where they are unless you know how they're built. And with them giving you an infinite boost (you can keep on riding from one boost of one of those cboosters forever), how is powered rails better? We've built entire networks around the cboosters, and it's not just "a little to clean up". We're talking about complete redesigning of every single large rail network.

The West Line goes out 6000 blocks to Blinky's beach, and then even further. The North Rail goes out 6000 blocks to dubien's current location, and there's thousands of rails done to the sides of that rail. Everything would have to be redone. Notch isn't "fixing" the cboosters - he's destroying a lot of work! That's what we're angry about. Not the conventional boosters.

Re: Very bad news...
conathan, Sun May 15 2011, 03:41AM

As bad as the work is for us, it was not an intended feature. It was a glitch.

Notch gave us an alternative before he went to fix the glitch, we just have to persevere though and deal with it.

Re: Very bad news...
, Sun May 15 2011, 10:36AM

^ agreed, it's going to cause a lot of work, but what's the problem? whenever there's a big job that needs doing we all band together to get it sorted. One more big job will only bring us all together for a little work and more play!

Re: Very bad news...
Deleted-User-1415, Mon May 16 2011, 11:04AM

I'll be online tonight about 22:00 GMT volunteering my services Anyone online then to donate some of those tracks to the cause? I am not a donator (yet)

Re: Very bad news...
, Mon May 16 2011, 11:05AM

sure will.

I definitely think we should get started immediately now we know it's coming, that way there wont be a railway downtime when it hits.

also Trap Doors are coming according to Notches Twitter

Re: Very bad news...
, Mon May 16 2011, 11:18AM

I definitely think we should get started immediately now we know it's coming, that way there wont be a railway downtime when it hits.

diablothe2nd

If we start now, there'll be railway downtime anyways. If we add one piece of powered rail to a section between stations, that entire section will be down until you have completed that section. And trust me, there are some pretty damn long sections around.

I think it's better to wait and see. Why? Because there's still the off chance cboosters won't be completely ruined. Yes, the conventional booster probably will, but we're not using them.

If not, then I guess those of us with gigantic rail networks have a lot of work before us. I know that I won't demand any help from anyone - I built most of (if not the entire) North Rails, and if it needs to be fixed, I'll put just as much effort into fixing it as I did building it in the first place.
But I don't want to start fixing it just yet. Let's enjoy the cboosters while we still have them anyways.

Re: Very bad news...
, Mon May 16 2011, 12:28PM

fair point

Re: Very bad news...
Deleted-User-1415, Mon May 16 2011, 01:44PM

I think that was a valid arguement, but the point still stands that it is a glitch, and you're not happy about developing a MASSIVE rail network, based on total reliance on the exploitation of a glitch.

Notch has declared war on bugs for his next update (and please please please please please PISTANS!) so it would be wise to keep an eye on his Tumblr and Twitter, maybe even ask him in Twitter about how likely it is that bug will be removed?

Re: Very bad news...
404thread, Mon May 16 2011, 04:04PM

I think that was a valid arguement, but the point still stands that it is a glitch, and you're not happy about developing a MASSIVE rail network, based on total reliance on the exploitation of a glitch.

Notch has declared war on bugs for his next update (and please please please please please PISTANS!) so it would be wise to keep an eye on his Tumblr and Twitter, maybe even ask him in Twitter about how likely it is that bug will be removed?

DavH27

i like how you start your post with "i agree, but i don't".

the railways were built at a time when there was nothing else to rely on than just an exploitation of a glitch, so dont slaughter the railway builders like that, they have put tons of effort in building 'em. i think i read someplace that this bug will be fixed. he is going trough the whole list on the minecraft wiki...

dayum, i'm glad that i was so lazy about starting to build my railways.

Re: Very bad news...
, Mon May 16 2011, 04:31PM

and you're not happy about developing a MASSIVE rail network, based on total reliance on the exploitation of a glitch.

What 404 said pretty much sums it up.

Notch has declared war on bugs for his next update (and please please please please please PISTANS!) so it would be wise to keep an eye on his Tumblr and Twitter, maybe even ask him in Twitter about how likely it is that bug will be removed?

DavH27

Thing is though... Why destroy a glitch that causes more good than bad? Yes, it's a glitch and was never supposed to be a part of the game, but think of it like this: The glitch, regardless of it being one, has given us the opportunity to create these massive rail networks that actually functions better than powered rails would have us even now. Perhaps the powered rails' improvements will fix this, but I still stand on my previous point: the glitch obviously does more good than bad. Why kill it?

I'm not expecting Notch to come around and decide to keep it. I am just stating the obvious here. Yes, the networks will most likely undergo massive work when 1.6 comes out - but then again, we may also find others ways of exploiting something different to give us the same effect as the cboosters now do, instead of having to rebuild massive areas to put in the powered rails. Only time will tell.

Re: Very bad news...
Deleted-User-1415, Mon May 16 2011, 05:22PM

i like how you start your post with "i agree, but i don't".

404thread

I actually didn't. I said he had a valid arguement, but there was a flaw with it. It's constructive debate.

That's twice now you've somehow found a way to nitpick at me - why?

Back to the powered railway/glitch topic...yeah OK I see what you mean about the glitch allowing the unlimited transportation over large distances, but the fact remains it was a glitch. Just as the gappy ladders and the water not pouring over signs/steps is a glitch that people exploit in designs. I have been waiting for bug fixes to be ironed out and to watch the masses complain about it.

I think maybe Notch was a little too eager to get a working product in front of people too early on. It has allowed people to grow accustomed to the behaviours of everything, bugs included.

I do feel your pain about having to rework an entire and extremely substantial build, but see it as D2 put it - see it as a new community project that we can all pitch in with

EDIT: I'd also like to add another point to this - Minecraft makes sense. It follows basic physics (sometimes it cuts corners and sometimes it numbs certain bits of it down to keep it simple, a selling point of the game and what people love about it) but to me, having to set up two mine-carts to go along to each other to have some kind of magnetic effect for unlimited boost effect...just doesn't make sense. To me, it doesn't make sense scientifically (in MC anyway) in the same way a lot of the other Minecraft laws of physics do.

I don't know how updates work or are coded - can Broonie 'switch off' that bug fix?

I'd like to add that I admire the work put into the rail network, but you signed up to a beta game, with bugs, so you probably shouldn't grow too fond of them should Notch decide to kill them!

I'd like to ride the rail this evening...get a feel for it's magnitude. Maybe then I'd see why you're upset if I can just grasp how much work would be involved in it's revamp. It is closed to public?

Re: Very bad news...
, Mon May 16 2011, 06:30PM

yes he's fixing the side to side cart glitch that is the main sources of our power and we suspect for the c booster how ever i wonder has anyone tried making a c booster with only one track of power rails with carts glitch into each other i am curious as to whether this might generate the same affect as to where this is the bug that actually boost the subject cart i am unsure of as i have never witnessed a side to side carts in opposite directions stopping each other the way a c-field can stop a cart dead

Re: Very bad news...
, Mon May 16 2011, 07:50PM

Thing is though... Why destroy a glitch that causes more good than bad?

Kahr

Because he created the powered rails to take there place. So he can now fix the booster glitch. While powered rails may not be 100% perfect currently he may improve them in the future.

Re: Very bad news...
, Mon May 16 2011, 11:16PM

EDIT: I'd also like to add another point to this - Minecraft makes sense. It follows basic physics (sometimes it cuts corners and sometimes it numbs certain bits of it down to keep it simple, a selling point of the game and what people love about it) but to me, having to set up two mine-carts to go along to each other to have some kind of magnetic effect for unlimited boost effect...just doesn't make sense. To me, it doesn't make sense scientifically (in MC anyway) in the same way a lot of the other Minecraft laws of physics do.

DavH27

Again, those are the conventional boosters. A cart going beside another cart is the conventional booster, in which several people have been complaining is not pretty. And I agree. But that is not the one we're using. The one we're using includes four or more carts hidden in a small compartment (not at ALL visible!) that generates a magnetic field. Yes, maybe it's not realistic - but consider this: would there not be some sort of magnetic field generated from four (or more) carts crashing together constantly? I think it would. Take the power of a car crash - as horrible it is, the forces at work is still awesome (awesome as in big, powerful, not cool!). You can in some way say that we're harnessing that power, hiding it so that it won't make everything look stupid and then boosting our carts with it so that it can go for endless distances without having as much as a single cart showing up out of nowhere to give you more boost.

Yes yes, it's a glitch. We may not have been counting on it to remain, but for him to fix it without giving us a proper way to deal with it first? At the current rate, the powered tracks are nowhere near good enough to deal with it the way we already are, and we can't be sure the increase of power to powered rails will. Instead of fixing this bug, he could try out his new ideas BEFORE forcing us to redesign everything, when we have no idea how well it can be done.

I'm not upset about him fixing a bug/glitch - I'm upset that we're not being given any sort of compensation for it (as far as we know as of yet).

I'd like to ride the rail this evening...get a feel for it's magnitude. Maybe then I'd see why you're upset if I can just grasp how much work would be involved in it's revamp. It is closed to public?

DavH27

It is open to the public. The North and West Rails have been connected to the New Spawn. If you go to Mossy Boulevard (take the first left upon leaving the spawn ship), you'll find a stairwell leading down into a cart launch system. Take either the West (Blinky and Minecraftblock0's system) or the North (mine). Both go quite some distance out.

I'd also like to add that the Western Line has a rather awesome build not too long after leaving spawn. It's Minecraftblock0's place, and you can't miss it. If you haven't seen it, I suggest you take the Western Skyrail. Very intriguing.
If you're up for taking both, feel free. Both are open to the public, and will always be (even after we may have to redesign it all).

Re: Very bad news...
, Tue May 17 2011, 12:02AM

but consider this: would there not be some sort of magnetic field generated from four (or more) carts crashing together constantly? I think it would.

Kahr

Nope. Metal objects crashing into each other do not create magnetic forces. Magnetic forces have nothing to do with impact forces.

Re: Very bad news...
, Tue May 17 2011, 06:03AM

Oyh, I know that. What you get is an awesome stopping power. Moving energy goes over to still energy, causing quite the stir.

Now if minecarts did that instead I think it'd cause quite a lot of chaos in Minecraft. I for one think it better that they cause a magnetic field than destruction.

Re: Very bad news...
, Tue May 17 2011, 04:35PM

In Minecraft like every invented world, there are things that are realistic to the Minecraft world, and things that are not. Magnetic fields created by crashes are not realistic to Minecraft.

Simply put if there was any kind of magnetic field that was as strong as you want it to be, every bit of metal you had on you would be sucked out of your pockets.

Re: Very bad news...
, Tue May 17 2011, 05:58PM

I saw a thread with a powered rail design which gave huge speeds. You have a loop with 4 powered rails (a redstone torch in the middle) and corners. Then you have a timing mechanism which will release your mine cart after a certain time onto the main track. Your minecart spins round the loop many times building up momentum, then its released and can travel a huge distance and uphill from those 4 power rails.

http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=1020&t=308670

Re: Very bad news...
, Wed May 18 2011, 11:59AM

Simply put if there was any kind of magnetic field that was as strong as you want it to be, every bit of metal you had on you would be sucked out of your pockets.

Stucuk

But big floating islands are? I think a magnetic field seems less unlikely than unexplained floating islands (or houses or whatever). Looks far less weird as well.

Edit: How can you say that something does not seem realistic to Minecraft when it's been a fact up until now? There are a lot of things that would seem far less realistic.

And it has done absolutely no harm, except maybe for the poor people who manage to drop their carts unto the boost field without being in the cart - those people lost their cart.

I saw a thread with a powered rail design which gave huge speeds. You have a loop with 4 powered rails (a redstone torch in the middle) and corners. Then you have a timing mechanism which will release your mine cart after a certain time onto the main track. Your minecart spins round the loop many times building up momentum, then its released and can travel a huge distance and uphill from those 4 power rails.

kandiru

It's been done already on the server. Blinky has one of these on his beach. Tried it - not impressed. Yes, it'll probably work better with improved power from the powered rails, but the circle only sends you this and that far - and uphill it sucked. It wasn't even able to send the cart up to the height of the skyrail from Blinky's beach.

Re: Very bad news...
, Wed May 18 2011, 06:54PM

Not sure how useful the loop/speed build up will be to people, as this is the same thing as sending the cart in a straight line over multiple power rails connected together. Eventually, probably within 10 back-to-back power rail tracks, you will also reach the cart's max speed.

I guess its good if you have limited space (such as in train stations) or have limited resources and can afford only 4 power rails to start you off.... but the rapid speed loss still means you need to place rails at regular intervals to maintain speed, and the intervals are much closer together going uphill.

Notch has said he plans to buff up the power cart to make it worth using in some instances. It might be good enough for the initial push up the long hills, then have an empty cart detector on the track that sends you on your way and the power cart back to the bottom of the hill to wait for the next cart. The problem with that solution is... you have to feed the power cart fuel, and if it sits idle on the tracks (even if its not moving) it is using up the fuel. You have to push it off the tracks to save the fuel.

So, in the end, we are probably going to be using a ton of power rails going uphill, then spread them out again on flat sections. We should come up with a way to hide the power source, as exposed redstone torches are easy to accidentally break, and a high-value target for thieves/griefers. I don't like the method of using a detector track next to a power rail to power the rail...its very glitchy when the server gets slow, and often causes carts to stop mid-power rail.

Re: Very bad news...
, Wed May 18 2011, 09:59PM

But big floating islands are? I think a magnetic field seems less unlikely than unexplained floating islands (or houses or whatever). Looks far less weird as well.

Kahr

Floating islands as far as i understand are not an intentional feature of the terrain generator.

How can you say that something does not seem realistic to Minecraft when it's been a fact up until now? There are a lot of things that would seem far less realistic.

Kahr

Because its an exploit. Something that was never intended to be possible by the developers. There is nothing similar that was added by Notch which would make it seem like a realistic thing.

If by accident a patch made it so that when people died diamonds spawned, it wouldn't then be realistic to believe that everyone is made of diamonds.

Re: Very bad news...
Deleted-User-1415, Thu May 19 2011, 07:59AM

Everything I've wanted to say has already been said by Stucuk but in a more articulated manner

Re: Very bad news...
, Thu May 19 2011, 08:54AM

Because its an exploit. Something that was never intended to be possible by the developers. There is nothing similar that was added by Notch which would make it seem like a realistic thing.

Stucuk

So everything added by Notch makes it realistic? Like lightning hitting pigs making them pigmen? Or the whole Creeper thing, a creature that simply walks over to you and blow up?

Yes, it is a bug/glitch, and using it may be an exploit of said bug/glitch, but I fail to see how keeping it around is a bad thing. I'm sorry, but your reasoning about "it not being realistic to the Minecraft universe" is something I just don't agree with. There is so much more good coming out of having it around than removing it all together.

I've already accepted that our cboosters will most likely crash and fail after 1.6 comes out - I am just saying that I disagree with the decision to remove it. I do not see the reason why.

Edit: Oh, and I pretty much agree with everything you said, block0. We're going to have a lot to figure out when the time comes.

Re: Very bad news...
Deleted-User-1415, Thu May 19 2011, 12:34PM

This whole forum topic raises some pretty valid points for both sides of the argument.

I have put this to Notch on Twitter. Fingers crossed he takes a look over this who knows? He may have either an alternative, or would hint at the boosters staying

http://twitter.com/#!/MrDavidHarrison/status/71189649724416001

Re: Very bad news...
, Thu May 19 2011, 10:01PM

Haha. Naw, I've already accepted that we're going to have to look for alternatives. I was just upset that one of the less "bad" glitches just had to be fixed. I see how it's not "likely" and all, I do, but I feel like it ought to just have stayed, even if it was a mistake.

Oh well - time to find new things to rage about.

Re: Very bad news...
Deleted-User-1415, Fri May 20 2011, 09:01AM

Aw don't worry, Kahr, you'll have the community's backing in revamping the rail, I'm sure I volunteer.

Re: Very bad news...
, Fri May 20 2011, 01:31PM

Hehe, I'm not worried about revamping the rails, I'm worried about not having enough initial boost. It'd stuck if we had to stick powered rails into every 10 to 20 blocks, honestly. But, we'll see. I foresee a lot of powered rails and a lot of red torches being used.

Re: Very bad news...
Deleted-User-1415, Fri May 20 2011, 01:35PM

Oh God I just realized...we'd prob have to secure the rail a bit by placing the red torch under the rail to keep it out of harm's way, right? That involved digging a small hole to get it under there in the first place. Bugger.

Re: Very bad news...
, Sat May 21 2011, 07:55AM

So everything added by Notch makes it realistic? Like lightning hitting pigs making them pigmen? Or the whole Creeper thing, a creature that simply walks over to you and blow up?

Kahr

Considering the fact that Notch is the one who invented the Minecraft Universe then yes, whatever he adds is realistic to the universe that HE created.

That doesn't mean that other peoples ideas are incompatible with the Minecraft Universe, just that you can't claim that things which were never intended to be possible are magically realistic because they exist.

Yes, it is a bug/glitch, and using it may be an exploit of said bug/glitch, but I fail to see how keeping it around is a bad thing. I'm sorry, but your reasoning about "it not being realistic to the Minecraft universe" is something I just don't agree with. There is so much more good coming out of having it around than removing it all together.

Kahr

You are just annoyed that you will no longer be able to cheat and have a low cost method to power minecarts. It has nothing to do with if its realistic or not.

I do not see the reason why.

Kahr

Its an exploit, an unintentional feature... Think i mentioned this before. It was never notches intention to have a way of making minecarts travel at very high speeds for long distances. I don't see how you can claim not to see that as a valid reason even if you don't believe in that reason as a just cause to remove it.

Oh God I just realized...we'd prob have to secure the rail a bit by placing the red torch under the rail to keep it out of harm's way, right? That involved digging a small hole to get it under there in the first place. Bugger.

DavH27

Thats the best way. Its what did on a small track i made. Its a good way of hiding them from view. Note that i had to place the powered rail before i placed the torch, if i did it the other way around then it wouldn't be lit up.

Re: Very bad news...
, Sat May 21 2011, 11:09AM

dunno if this has been said before, as i skipped most of this page to only read the points, but notch said on his twitter that he's giving powered rails more power to compensate us for the loss of boosters.

Re: Very bad news...
, Sat May 21 2011, 11:37AM

Que Sera, Sera,
Whatever will be, will be
The future's not ours, to see
Que Sera, Sera
What will be, will be.

Re: Very bad news...
, Sat May 21 2011, 03:03PM

You are just annoyed that you will no longer be able to cheat and have a low cost method to power minecarts. It has nothing to do with if its realistic or not.

Stucuk

Low cost? The cboosters have cost me a lot of iron to make. Sure, it costs less iron than redecorating the entire system with powered rails would've cost in gold - but how can I be angry about not cheating then? Because I can kit powered rails - I cannot kit iron or carts. And it's not it being realistic I'm arguing about, but neither am I annoyed about having a low cost cheating way to power minecarts. If I had to pour ridiculous amounts of iron into it, I'd STILL do it, simply because no matter how you twist and turn it, the cbooster effect will always be the best way to travel great distances. Yes, this includes how many powered rails you put on a track.

If you are going to continue a discussion (even though I had given some juicy hints that I was ready to end it), then at least do not assume this or assume that. Either you're not bothered to properly read what I type, or you're actually just assuming I think this or I believe that. I never stated neither that I thought it was realistic - or that that was the reason I wanted the cbooster effect to stay.

Its an exploit, an unintentional feature... Think i mentioned this before. It was never notches intention to have a way of making minecarts travel at very high speeds for long distances. I don't see how you can claim not to see that as a valid reason even if you don't believe in that reason as a just cause to remove it.

Stucuk

I never said I did not see the "valid reason" behind removing it. If that's what you think, then please, do go back and re-read all of my posts, because clearly you've missed something, or you're just making assumptions.

I'm done arguing about the cbooster now. I have pointed out all of my views, and if you still cannot understand why I say this and that, then leave it be.

Oh God I just realized...we'd prob have to secure the rail a bit by placing the red torch under the rail to keep it out of harm's way, right? That involved digging a small hole to get it under there in the first place. Bugger.

DavH27

Digging down under the track is simple if you actually had something to dig down under in the first place. This is the least of my worries... Now trying to place redstone torches under the skyrail to hide them from view - THAT's a challenge!