FTB: Big Reactors, Turbines and Fluid movement
boriseng, Sun Aug 10 2014, 02:06PMPlaying about with turbines in creative...
Currently I'm focussing on Fluiducts as they are cheap and seem to have quite simple rules. I might try conduits too but I'd have to learn them first.
The first thing I'm noticing is that blocks and pipes have a limited rate at which they OUTPUT fluid, the input rate does not appear capped.
Further to the above: the Big Reactors fluid ports do not appear to have an output rate limit, so if you can place an output of one multi-block adjacent to the input of another then the transfer appears unlimited and only restricted by the 2000mB/t turbine steam limit.
I'd also like to add that a 5*5*3 two-rod reactor with a graphite moderator was easily able to supply one max-size turbine in creative. I'd save your resonant ender for making enderium blocks for the turbine coil. Out of creative it took a 5*5*5 four-pot to get the power but its giving about 423% so its good. Set the turbine up first, set its fluid ports, then build the reactor directly adjacent and you'll find you can set the reactor fluid port directions then finish building the reactor afterward. The turbine ports won't set unless the turbine is fully built.
64 rotor blades, 32 enderium blocks, 1800mb/t, 25000rf/t and it appears to power more than 4 laser drill pre-chargers (I used 6). The pre-chargers power the laser drills that mines the fuel to power the reactor, and in the mean time turn out so much platinum that after a while you can make a quantum suit without touching uu-matter (or could if it wasn't for the stupid crafting bug).
Fluiduct will output steam at 360mB/t per face, and water at 120mB/t per face, so that monstrosity would need 5 steam connections into the turbine and 15 water returns into the reactor if you used fluiduct. Still only one of each output though.
Big reactors uses a 1:1 water to steam ratio currently so you need 3* as many intakes on the coolant return vs the steam supply. I haven't found a flow rate limit on the outlet yet, so one output block was enough for all the water even though it was split 5 ways at the reactor block.
It appear that Engineer's Toolbox socket blocks (Not in DW20) can be used as a high-speed pipe, fitted with fluid in and out ports they successfully handled 600mB/t of water without paralleling.
Engineer's Toolbox Fluid Pipes did not work well, and can cause crashes so don't go there.
The railcraft high-pressure boiler appears to be limited to 80 mB/t per junction so a max-size boiler needs a 3*3 grid of pipes to collect its full output. So far the only way I've found to break the limit required Gregtech pump covers (not in DW20).
The Railcraft boiler to Big Reactors Turbine combination multiplies water like crazy, so might find use in the nether as a water "source"?
Re: FTB: Big Reactors, Turbines and Fluid movement
draze, Sun Aug 10 2014, 04:42PM
I'd suggest looking into EnderIO systems. for example the high energy green enderIO energy conduit can transfer 20k RF/t.
I haven't really calculated the throughput of pressurised liquid conduits however i believe they may also be of a higher transfer and dont require pumps or RS signals. The internal gui of the pipe connector has quite a few options to tinker with.
draze, Sun Aug 10 2014, 04:42PM
I'd suggest looking into EnderIO systems. for example the high energy green enderIO energy conduit can transfer 20k RF/t.
I haven't really calculated the throughput of pressurised liquid conduits however i believe they may also be of a higher transfer and dont require pumps or RS signals. The internal gui of the pipe connector has quite a few options to tinker with.
Re: FTB: Big Reactors, Turbines and Fluid movement
boriseng, Sun Aug 10 2014, 05:20PM
Thanks, but it looks like that's still not enough.
My latest beast of a turbine has a casing that's 11 by 11 by 12, with 80 blades arranged as 5 layers of 16 blades each, and 36 enderium blocks as the coil. At about 1700RPM the output's beaten 25,000RF/t
The reactor's a modest little 5*5*5 box with fuel rods in the corner and graphite blocks in between. So far its taken one ingot of yellorium to spin it up.
For what its worth a longer narrower turbine is more material-efficient, but doesn't look anything like as epic.
The socket based fluid mover works, but I think you may get the same throughput by just building the reactor adjacent to the turbine for a direct connection
boriseng, Sun Aug 10 2014, 05:20PM
Thanks, but it looks like that's still not enough.
My latest beast of a turbine has a casing that's 11 by 11 by 12, with 80 blades arranged as 5 layers of 16 blades each, and 36 enderium blocks as the coil. At about 1700RPM the output's beaten 25,000RF/t
The reactor's a modest little 5*5*5 box with fuel rods in the corner and graphite blocks in between. So far its taken one ingot of yellorium to spin it up.
For what its worth a longer narrower turbine is more material-efficient, but doesn't look anything like as epic.
The socket based fluid mover works, but I think you may get the same throughput by just building the reactor adjacent to the turbine for a direct connection
Re: FTB: Big Reactors, Turbines and Fluid movement
draze, Sun Aug 10 2014, 07:19PM
quite impressive. I've been using Cryoethium in the reactor. How high does the heat level go with graphite blocks?
draze, Sun Aug 10 2014, 07:19PM
quite impressive. I've been using Cryoethium in the reactor. How high does the heat level go with graphite blocks?
Re: FTB: Big Reactors, Turbines and Fluid movement
boriseng, Mon Aug 11 2014, 07:29AM
Provided the turbine is running at speed it seemed to stabilise at about the 600-800C mark, though I haven't got a control system so it takes a bit of control rod tweaking to get it to settle, sometimes it sinks and the steam output drops off if its below 350C. I think I'm running three rods at 10% and one at 20%.
If the coolant flow stops the temp shoots up. Its understandable but it makes spinning up the turbine difficult as the steam consumption and water production vary with speed. I've found that attaching a small railcraft boiler to the turbine makes it much easier to fill the system.
As for the coolant/moderator debate I've resorted to looking at source code and I'm still not sure what's going on. Graphite's cheap and I think it had the highest moderator figure of any of the materials. That means it improves the fuel rod to fuel rod interaction. I think coolant may be meant to improve the rod to casing heat transfer, but it seems as if the corner-rod design has good direct transfer anyway.
I tried a 2-rod design in a 5*5*5 casing and adding resonant ender in the corners made a small difference to the control rod settings but overall the performance didn't seem to change much.
boriseng, Mon Aug 11 2014, 07:29AM
Provided the turbine is running at speed it seemed to stabilise at about the 600-800C mark, though I haven't got a control system so it takes a bit of control rod tweaking to get it to settle, sometimes it sinks and the steam output drops off if its below 350C. I think I'm running three rods at 10% and one at 20%.
If the coolant flow stops the temp shoots up. Its understandable but it makes spinning up the turbine difficult as the steam consumption and water production vary with speed. I've found that attaching a small railcraft boiler to the turbine makes it much easier to fill the system.
As for the coolant/moderator debate I've resorted to looking at source code and I'm still not sure what's going on. Graphite's cheap and I think it had the highest moderator figure of any of the materials. That means it improves the fuel rod to fuel rod interaction. I think coolant may be meant to improve the rod to casing heat transfer, but it seems as if the corner-rod design has good direct transfer anyway.
I tried a 2-rod design in a 5*5*5 casing and adding resonant ender in the corners made a small difference to the control rod settings but overall the performance didn't seem to change much.
Re: FTB: Big Reactors, Turbines and Fluid movement
draze, Mon Aug 11 2014, 03:33PM
Well i can help you with the water flow. Use an infinity source of water with a liquid transfer node above it pointing down at the water. Attach liquiduct or enderIo pressurised conduit above.
This method actually produces infinite immediate water without transfer or "loading" time. Also if creating a chain of multiple water sources and nodes seperate them using sawn panels as the connection between the nodes screws up the water transfer to the pipes above.
I agree with the RC tank however using an a chain of portable (enderium 64k mb) tanks seems to get a better transfer rate. That may just be due to singleplayer.
So far though i'm yet to find a stable high end power plant design, i even tried splitting the system into 4 reactors > 1 big RC tank in the middle > piped to a large turbine > output to enderIO capacitor bank around the top of the turbine. worked extremely well however VERY expensive to set up.
draze, Mon Aug 11 2014, 03:33PM
Well i can help you with the water flow. Use an infinity source of water with a liquid transfer node above it pointing down at the water. Attach liquiduct or enderIo pressurised conduit above.
This method actually produces infinite immediate water without transfer or "loading" time. Also if creating a chain of multiple water sources and nodes seperate them using sawn panels as the connection between the nodes screws up the water transfer to the pipes above.
I agree with the RC tank however using an a chain of portable (enderium 64k mb) tanks seems to get a better transfer rate. That may just be due to singleplayer.
So far though i'm yet to find a stable high end power plant design, i even tried splitting the system into 4 reactors > 1 big RC tank in the middle > piped to a large turbine > output to enderIO capacitor bank around the top of the turbine. worked extremely well however VERY expensive to set up.
Re: FTB: Big Reactors, Turbines and Fluid movement
boriseng, Tue Aug 12 2014, 08:39AM
I tried to follow the description of transfer nodes, I'm really not sure I "get" what it means, does it just output into a connected pipe? What does it mean by "Network"? I suppose its enough that it acts as a fast water source but what's it really for?
Regarding stability I think the turbine system just needs a feedback loop on reactor temperature, I had another look at mine and it turns out the temperature instability was because I was using yellorium blocks as fuel, and when it was nearly 9 ingots down the temperature would ramp down and then back up again when it accepted another block.
Fed with ingots it should be better behaved but I think it still needs active control.
Mind you I think I want to learn the rednet controller anyway, or maybe finally get round to learning computercraft.
boriseng, Tue Aug 12 2014, 08:39AM
I tried to follow the description of transfer nodes, I'm really not sure I "get" what it means, does it just output into a connected pipe? What does it mean by "Network"? I suppose its enough that it acts as a fast water source but what's it really for?
Regarding stability I think the turbine system just needs a feedback loop on reactor temperature, I had another look at mine and it turns out the temperature instability was because I was using yellorium blocks as fuel, and when it was nearly 9 ingots down the temperature would ramp down and then back up again when it accepted another block.
Fed with ingots it should be better behaved but I think it still needs active control.
Mind you I think I want to learn the rednet controller anyway, or maybe finally get round to learning computercraft.
Re: FTB: Big Reactors, Turbines and Fluid movement
AlexKockica, Tue Aug 12 2014, 11:14AM
Transfer node water transfer method was introduced when we built the steam turbine "dirty" power production on second monster map.. it was a cheap power gen because of a bug where steam turbines (mfr), only needed water to produce energy..
Then Draze made a huge power plant using the same principal which has proven to be amazing, until they fixed the bug
Here's an image of what using liquid transfer nodes for water intake looks like:
http://i.imgur.com/pGKpBqJ.png
just replace all the pipes with Ender IO liquid conduits (connect them on top of transfer nodes and to the reactor..
edit: you can also add speed upgrades to it so it would suck in even more water, faster.. and yes, they just input water into conduits (they kinda act as pumps..)
AlexKockica, Tue Aug 12 2014, 11:14AM
Transfer node water transfer method was introduced when we built the steam turbine "dirty" power production on second monster map.. it was a cheap power gen because of a bug where steam turbines (mfr), only needed water to produce energy..
Then Draze made a huge power plant using the same principal which has proven to be amazing, until they fixed the bug
Here's an image of what using liquid transfer nodes for water intake looks like:
http://i.imgur.com/pGKpBqJ.png
just replace all the pipes with Ender IO liquid conduits (connect them on top of transfer nodes and to the reactor..
edit: you can also add speed upgrades to it so it would suck in even more water, faster.. and yes, they just input water into conduits (they kinda act as pumps..)
Re: FTB: Big Reactors, Turbines and Fluid movement
boriseng, Tue Aug 12 2014, 01:15PM
Ouch!! It looks like you had to enlarge the reactor to make room for the connections. Counting the blades that's almost the same turbine as I have, but your version uses less materials.
I think Big Reactors needs to reward large-diameter turbines somehow otherwise they'll tend to always be 5*5 and ludicrously long or tall.
Also I'm not sure but I think liquid transfer nodes may be more powerful than you give credit, there's a "pipe" type in extra utilities and if I read it correctly the node will search the "network" formed by the pipe and other nodes to find a destination to put the fluid. That means you should be able to set up one node next to the coolant port and it would supply the reactor directly...but...put another node next to the first one and it still sees the reactor as a destination.
Oh I see, they are transport pipes not conduits.
boriseng, Tue Aug 12 2014, 01:15PM
Ouch!! It looks like you had to enlarge the reactor to make room for the connections. Counting the blades that's almost the same turbine as I have, but your version uses less materials.
I think Big Reactors needs to reward large-diameter turbines somehow otherwise they'll tend to always be 5*5 and ludicrously long or tall.
Also I'm not sure but I think liquid transfer nodes may be more powerful than you give credit, there's a "pipe" type in extra utilities and if I read it correctly the node will search the "network" formed by the pipe and other nodes to find a destination to put the fluid. That means you should be able to set up one node next to the coolant port and it would supply the reactor directly...but...put another node next to the first one and it still sees the reactor as a destination.
Oh I see, they are transport pipes not conduits.
Re: FTB: Big Reactors, Turbines and Fluid movement
boriseng, Tue Aug 12 2014, 05:28PM
This is what I mean, the nodes connect by themselves and the connections don't appear to be flow-limited so all nine nodes output into the tank. On the left is a tank connected to only one node
boriseng, Tue Aug 12 2014, 05:28PM
This is what I mean, the nodes connect by themselves and the connections don't appear to be flow-limited so all nine nodes output into the tank. On the left is a tank connected to only one node
Re: FTB: Big Reactors, Turbines and Fluid movement
AlexKockica, Tue Aug 12 2014, 07:29PM
Place the Ender IO fluid conduits just above the nodes so that nodes pump liquid directly into them and connect conduits to tank (or other destination), also add some speed upgrades..
btw the photo I posted wasn't mine, it was random one from google just to show you the transfer node placement etc
AlexKockica, Tue Aug 12 2014, 07:29PM
Place the Ender IO fluid conduits just above the nodes so that nodes pump liquid directly into them and connect conduits to tank (or other destination), also add some speed upgrades..
btw the photo I posted wasn't mine, it was random one from google just to show you the transfer node placement etc
Re: FTB: Big Reactors, Turbines and Fluid movement
boriseng, Tue Aug 12 2014, 09:09PM
What I'm trying to say is Ender IO has its own pipe type and its fluid transfer appears unlimited so if you use ender IO pipes all the way then the throughput is huge, it'll transfer everything the nodes can output. If you link it to another pipe type then you restrict the flow.
Whoever set up that system in the picture probably didn't need anything like as much plumbing, if they are Ender IO transport pipes then I think one pipe would have been enough!
boriseng, Tue Aug 12 2014, 09:09PM
What I'm trying to say is Ender IO has its own pipe type and its fluid transfer appears unlimited so if you use ender IO pipes all the way then the throughput is huge, it'll transfer everything the nodes can output. If you link it to another pipe type then you restrict the flow.
Whoever set up that system in the picture probably didn't need anything like as much plumbing, if they are Ender IO transport pipes then I think one pipe would have been enough!
Re: FTB: Big Reactors, Turbines and Fluid movement
draze, Wed Aug 13 2014, 07:00PM
yeah the main problem with the nodes is that it has to search the network for an inventory each time it transfers a block or fluid chunk. Unfortunately this means that there is a degraded "seek" time for each node. We got around that by using the EnderIO pipes so it was an immediate transfer from the nodes to the pipes. If they fixed the inventory seek annoyance those node pipes would be amazingly perfect.
I would set up a grid of 10x10 nodes/water sources in my base and construct the node to enderIO pressurized conduit system. It could supply my reactor and any other machine needing water easily with more to spare.
draze, Wed Aug 13 2014, 07:00PM
yeah the main problem with the nodes is that it has to search the network for an inventory each time it transfers a block or fluid chunk. Unfortunately this means that there is a degraded "seek" time for each node. We got around that by using the EnderIO pipes so it was an immediate transfer from the nodes to the pipes. If they fixed the inventory seek annoyance those node pipes would be amazingly perfect.
I would set up a grid of 10x10 nodes/water sources in my base and construct the node to enderIO pressurized conduit system. It could supply my reactor and any other machine needing water easily with more to spare.
Re: FTB: Big Reactors, Turbines and Fluid movement
piggles, Fri Aug 15 2014, 02:20AM
erm... just add the upgrades to 1 node and 1 pipe... u'll be amazed at the flow rate, the reactor however has a different output rate and u can't pull it out any faster, so u will need more outputs (i think thats right, i'd have to check my base to be sure).
piggles, Fri Aug 15 2014, 02:20AM
erm... just add the upgrades to 1 node and 1 pipe... u'll be amazed at the flow rate, the reactor however has a different output rate and u can't pull it out any faster, so u will need more outputs (i think thats right, i'd have to check my base to be sure).
Re: FTB: Big Reactors, Turbines and Fluid movement
boriseng, Fri Aug 15 2014, 08:22AM
Well depending on location I'd recommend fluiducts or socket blocks for moving the steam. As far as I can tell one output on the reactor is enough. Using Fluiducts it will need six junctions to get 2000mb/t steam OUT of the fluiduct. You do NOT need to parallel the fluiduct.
I do intend to try conduits in creative sometime.
I'd also like to find a fluid pipe with priority, so I could configure it to void any surplus steam after the turbine has been supplied.
If you're using transfer nodes to move the steam it ought to be possible to put a tank at the coolant output port and stick transfer nodes on the tank. This will save on the number of ports needed.
Using socket blocks with a fluid input on one side and a fluid output on the other was enough to transfer all the steam and because Engineer's does not implement viscosity it works for water too.
If you want to move the steam a fair distance I might suggest using a socket block with five fluid inputs and one output to supply the turbine, then using fluiduct to supply the socket. The fluiduct is one of the cheapest methods, but the turbine fluid port is relatively expensive.
Another method might be to use fluiduct to go from the reactor to six junctions on a distribution tank, then multiple transfer nodes on the tank and then run transport pipe to the turbine.
DO NOT USE THE ENGINEER'S TOOLBOX FLUID PIPE IT WILL ONLY LEAD TO HEARTACHE AND WOE!!
Update: I've built a 5x5 turbine with the reactor directly adjacent to the turbine instead of pipes. It works fine, I used a third coolant port to pipe water in to fill it but its mainly running on returned water.
ALSO:
Is it my imagination or is Enderium ludicrously overpowered. Hint: if you're building a turbine with it then allow about 2.2 blades per block, possibly less. Just two might work but you might have trouble getting to 1800rpm.
Granted if you didn't have access to MFR the enderpearls might be hard to farm. I think the problem is that on Monster you have TE (enderium, easy blaze powder etc), MFR (laser drill, grinder, autospawner), Rotarycraft (Ore multiplication) and Electricraft (Platinum).
The energy yield is enough that you can run a railcraft boiler indefinitely using an oil fabricator and refinery.
boriseng, Fri Aug 15 2014, 08:22AM
Well depending on location I'd recommend fluiducts or socket blocks for moving the steam. As far as I can tell one output on the reactor is enough. Using Fluiducts it will need six junctions to get 2000mb/t steam OUT of the fluiduct. You do NOT need to parallel the fluiduct.
I do intend to try conduits in creative sometime.
I'd also like to find a fluid pipe with priority, so I could configure it to void any surplus steam after the turbine has been supplied.
If you're using transfer nodes to move the steam it ought to be possible to put a tank at the coolant output port and stick transfer nodes on the tank. This will save on the number of ports needed.
Using socket blocks with a fluid input on one side and a fluid output on the other was enough to transfer all the steam and because Engineer's does not implement viscosity it works for water too.
If you want to move the steam a fair distance I might suggest using a socket block with five fluid inputs and one output to supply the turbine, then using fluiduct to supply the socket. The fluiduct is one of the cheapest methods, but the turbine fluid port is relatively expensive.
Another method might be to use fluiduct to go from the reactor to six junctions on a distribution tank, then multiple transfer nodes on the tank and then run transport pipe to the turbine.
DO NOT USE THE ENGINEER'S TOOLBOX FLUID PIPE IT WILL ONLY LEAD TO HEARTACHE AND WOE!!
Update: I've built a 5x5 turbine with the reactor directly adjacent to the turbine instead of pipes. It works fine, I used a third coolant port to pipe water in to fill it but its mainly running on returned water.
ALSO:
Is it my imagination or is Enderium ludicrously overpowered. Hint: if you're building a turbine with it then allow about 2.2 blades per block, possibly less. Just two might work but you might have trouble getting to 1800rpm.
Granted if you didn't have access to MFR the enderpearls might be hard to farm. I think the problem is that on Monster you have TE (enderium, easy blaze powder etc), MFR (laser drill, grinder, autospawner), Rotarycraft (Ore multiplication) and Electricraft (Platinum).
The energy yield is enough that you can run a railcraft boiler indefinitely using an oil fabricator and refinery.
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